Posts by Rex B13

43

The Bible advances women's rights

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.

in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.

here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).

Rex B13

Perhaps all of you could answer the post directly the info within, instead of hijacking the thread?
Rex

67

God's image

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

we are made in god's image and he is a person, not just some invisible, omnipresent force.

here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.. the bible consistently portrays god as a passionate individual, whose inner experiences of love, compassion, grief, delight, joy, peace, anguish, and moral outrage at atrocity dwarf ours in the extreme.

the bible makes no apology for this, but rather exults in the living one, in contrast to the dead and lifeless idols that surrounded its writers.. one scholar put it thus:.

Rex B13

We are made in God's image and He is a person, not just some invisible, omnipresent force. Here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.

The Bible consistently portrays God as a passionate individual, whose inner experiences of love, compassion, grief, delight, joy, peace, anguish, and moral outrage at atrocity dwarf ours in the extreme. The Bible makes no apology for this, but rather exults in the Living One, in contrast to the dead and lifeless idols that surrounded its writers.

One scholar put it thus:
"The Bible speaks unashamedly of Yahweh's passion, presenting him as an intense and passionate Being, fervently interested in the world of humans. Not only is there no embarrassment on the part of the OT at Yahweh's possession of emotion, but rather, it is celebrated (see for example, 2 Sam 22:8, 9, 16; Ps 145:8). In fact, his passion guarantees not only that he is intensely interested in the world but that he is a person. This in turn opens up the possibility for communion at the heart of the universe. Therefore, his passion was seen to be continually linked with the implementation of his resolve, and in this, interaction with the world. The God of the OT desired fellowship and interaction with the other persons in his world, and his anger was seen to be part of the actualization of that desire.

[This, I might add, is so fundamental to understanding the bible (and knowing God, obviously!)--although rarified versions of systematic and/or philosophical theology have been (and, are still) known to hold to varied forms of an 'impassible god'.

For all the emotions I can think of, the bible takes the position that such emotions can be appropriate responses to situations OR inappropriate responses to situations (when the emotion is deliberately sustained, of course). Pity can be quite inappropriate (e.g., when it is the dominant emotion controlling how one deals with active, willful, violent oppressors, instead of for those being victimized by them), and outrage can be quite appropriate in situations of moral and human atrocity (e.g., child abuse, rape, violent crimes against the elderly, vandalism against the poor, extortion of the helpless).

Likewise, the Bible argues that (like us people) emotions are not 'mutually exclusive and exhaustive' at any given moment. Just as my mom could have felt affection, anger, compassion, frustration, confusion, helplessness, hopefulness and despair(!)--ALL AT THE SAME MOMENT--when I was still a teenager living in her home (embarrassed grin), so too can we and so too can God. God is frequently described in these terms in the Prophets--His love for His people Israel (compassion and affection) is simultaneously experienced by Him as His anger (at their intra-Israel atrocities) and His hopefulness (that they will 'wake up' to treating one another better, in keeping with the Covenant contract they "signed" together as a community!). Hosea 11:8ff is so very vivid (and moving) in showing the struggles in the heart of God. There is no intrinsic contradiction in ascribing multiple emotional states to a person, since we consistently experience these in our lives. And God, as a Person, is apparently no different in that respect...

For example, God is said to be "angry with the wicked every day." Since "wickedness," in biblical terms, is generally related to treachery, atrocity, and oppression, I would HOPE God would be disturbed by this. But at the same time, the Bible says that God is "patient" with them (hoping they will 'come around' and re-join the community in love and contribution) and even "nurturing" (i.e., leading them/influencing them in that direction). His moral anger at personal evil, of course, has nothing to do with Him being 'caught off guard' or surprised by it (!), since His response is the treachery involved--NOT the circumstances of it. Even my experience illustrates this aspect. I know quite well that in the future I will read (yet another) story of human atrocity, be it on an individual scale (such as rape, child abuse, or brutalization) or group scale (such as ethnic violence, religious persecution, or economic exploitation), so there is no element of 'surprise' in my response when I actually encounter the story. I KNOW I will be upset when I read it...

43

The Bible advances women's rights

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

our forum's now chapter likes to slander christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women.

in truth, the bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a paternalistic society.

here are the results of research into this topic.. num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (sotah) is a an amazing provision by god for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process).

Rex B13

Our forum's NOW chapter likes to slander Christian believers over alleged poor treatment of women. In truth, the Bible advanced women's rights in the ancient world, even in a Paternalistic society. Here are the results of research into this topic.

Num 5.12--the trial of bitter waters (Sotah) is a an amazing provision by God for a woman to publicly clear her name (and indict a dysfunctional husband in the process). This is the procedure invoked by a jealous and/or paranoid husband who suspected his wife of infidelity. God gave this law to protect the woman from physical and economic abuse from a capricious and petty husband. In many of the cultures of that day, men had absolute dictatorial rights over their wives. If they suspected adultery, they were allowed to kill the woman without any appeal on her part. There was not a process of justice, or process where they BOTH had to appear before a higher authority. In fact, in the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1720 BC.), CH 132, women who were suspected of this type of infidelity were required to throw themselves into the Euphrates river--if they drown, they were guilty; if not, they were innocent! (Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 171). God would instead provide a public vindication process, before His leaders, his people, and the couple. If the woman was vindicated, the man would bear the stigma of unfounded and paranoid jealousy, and slanderous accusation before his friends/family (with possible legal consequences). Her rights were protected by this very ceremony. This was a very, very advanced pro-women procedure for those times.

By comparison, in the other law codes of that time, ANYONE could accuse her and force her to undergo the River Ordeal(!). So, the Laws of Ur-Nammu, 14 [ca. 2100bc, Ur in Sumer]: "If a man accuses the wife of a young man of promiscuity but the River Ordeal clears her..." (LCMAM:18).

And the proof of virginity is the same thing--a protection.
The examples given as evidence for a double-standard are simply too weak to support such a conclusion. On the other hand, we have TONS of passages that support (1) a much greater emphasis on male fidelity and (2) preferential treatment for women in disputes of this nature.

The 10 commandments SINGLE OUT the male (Ex 20.17b)...
in cases of rape, the woman is given the benefit of the doubt (Lev 19.20ff; Deut 22.25-27)...
and is protected from disastrous marriages from those (Ex 22.16)...
in cases of adultery, BOTH parties were killed--a fact noted by authors as being a 'step forward' at that time (Lev 20.10-12)...
the male is CONSISTENTLY singled out for admonition in this area (Lev 18; Deut 27; Jer 5.7; Ezek 18.6; 22.10ff)...
even the case of female war captives was regulated for the male! (Deut 21.11)...
in some cases women were "excused from guilt" because of the guilt of the men! (Hos 4.14ff)...
And remember, this "inequality" AGAINST the male would had to have involved a female--but they do not get 'equal time' in the warnings/admonitions! They are often simply assumed to be more righteous in this area (cf. The "benefit of the doubt" passages above).

Again, the data is simply otherwise--IF there is a double-standard, THEN it is "against" the men! So quit with your out of context whining.
Rex

51

Afghan Women under Taliban

by Tina in

jw
friends

for those who might be interested in the plight, public murder,bride-price, of women who live under talibans terroriistic fundamentalism........ warning!

graphic photos.. http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/women.html.

carl sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones.

Rex B13

....and you whine about American men who simply want to be men and not objects of hatred by feminazis. Better wake up, Missy. The world is an ugly place and you have it made over here.
Perhaps you girls could be real brave and set up NOW chapters in all of the Islamic countries? Nah, then you'd have to get a army of men to protect you.
Just think, if those terrible Crusaders had completely vanquished Islam, your sisters would not be relegated to second class status. They'd be like the rest of the women who live in Christian, western civilization.
Ta ta,
Rex

44

Questions="dishonest baiting"?

by Julie in

jw
friends

three little scriptures that i feel reflect the opposite of all that christians claim biblegod to be.

i merely asked a hard-core defender of the faith to justify these as actions of an all-loving, enlightened supreme being.

here they are along with the "explanations" of them (in a nutshell):.

Rex B13

Where do you want me to follow you, Skally? I'll try almost anything for a pretty girl. ;-)
I'm not at all sure what you want from your post.
Rex

8

A Texan and Totalitarianism

by GinnyTosken in

jw
friends

congress is now reviving a proposal killed last year by senator phil gramm, the texas republican who was then chairman of the senate banking committee.

the bill, introduced by the clinton administration, would give the treasury secretary broad power to bar foreign countries and banks from access to the american financial market unless they cooperated with money-laundering investigations.

it was strongly opposed by the banking industry and mr. gramm.. "i was right then and i am right now" in opposing the bill, mr. gramm said yesterday.

Rex B13

Hi Ginny,
Maybe you could go and ask the Taliban or Asama Bi Laden about that? Oops, I forgot, women are not often seen and NEVER heard in that country.
Cheers,
Rex

44

Questions="dishonest baiting"?

by Julie in

jw
friends

three little scriptures that i feel reflect the opposite of all that christians claim biblegod to be.

i merely asked a hard-core defender of the faith to justify these as actions of an all-loving, enlightened supreme being.

here they are along with the "explanations" of them (in a nutshell):.

Rex B13

>:"i could never worship a god who needs to be praised all day"
---------some dead guy

God NEEDS nothing from us.
We worship and praise God because we love Him.
He died on a cross, in the flesh for our sakes and offer us eternal life with the only condition that we believe on Him in faith.
He brought being into existence knowing full well that their own 'free choice' would cause them to fall and violate His righteous standards. Yet He still gave us life, He gave us a reprieve by allowing our sinful ancestors to reproduce, then He gave us grace, undeserved love, justification by the blood of Christ, sanctification by believing on Him and glorification in heaven that is already accomplished in eternity.
Rex

44

Questions="dishonest baiting"?

by Julie in

jw
friends

three little scriptures that i feel reflect the opposite of all that christians claim biblegod to be.

i merely asked a hard-core defender of the faith to justify these as actions of an all-loving, enlightened supreme being.

here they are along with the "explanations" of them (in a nutshell):.

Rex B13

Yep, you have the title.

You keep raising the same verses, ad nauseum, that have already been answered repeatedly, you contuinue to ignore the research done in written material because you don't like the answer. So why do you keep bringing it up, time after time?
You are baiting Christians.
How are you dishonest?
You want no answer except the conclusion that you have come to, therefore, no answer that ANYONE OF FAITH can give will ever satisfy you. If you were 'oh so concerned' about the people coming out of the Borg you would quit changing the focus of the forum and work WITH Christians to get people out of that cult. Isn't that the goal here?
This also applies to many of the rest here:
Furthermore, you are dishonest and heartless even in that respect, because you offer those leaving the WBTS nothing except a six foot hole at the end of a pointless life.
Some of us think you point their eternal souls toward hell, but that is another issue.
Rex

1

Doing Julie's research for her

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

from my friend's site:.

i understand this certainly identified him as a prophet to the people in that area, but it does, at least to me, seem cruel given the harmless taunt.. "how can i believe in a god who would send bears to devour little children for innocently teasing an old man whose appearance probably was unusual even for that day" (hsobx) .

first, the passage itself: .

Rex B13

From my friend's site:
I've always been a little worried about the events in 2Kings 2:23-25, where Elisha is jeered and then ends up using a curse that kills 42 kids near Bethel. I understand this certainly identified him as a prophet to the people in that area, but it does, at least to me, seem cruel given the harmless taunt.

"How can I believe in a God who would send bears to devour little children for innocently teasing an old man whose appearance probably was unusual even for that day" (HSOBX)
But a closer look at the passage show that most of the assumptions in that position are false, and that other elements (not explicit in the words, but present in the historical situation) illumine the situation.

First, the passage itself:
"He went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!" 24 When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
Now, let's look at some of the elements of the historical background, and the various players in the event:

1. First of all, they weren't "little kids"!
"'Little children' is an unfortunate translation. The Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best rendered 'young lads' or 'young men.' From numerous examples where ages are specified in the Old Testament, we know that these were boys from twelve to thirty years old. One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty." [HSOBX]
2. Elisha wasn't "old"--he was the same age as they were!
"But was Elisha an old man short on patience and a sense of humor? This charge is also distorted, for Elisha can hardly have been more than twenty-five when this incident happened. He lived nearly sixty years after this..." [HSOBX]
3. Elisha had JUST FINISHED doing a mercy-miracle for the entire city of nearby Jericho!!!!
"The chapter closes with two miracles of Elisha. These immediately established the character of his ministry--his would be a helping ministry to those in need, but one that would brook no disrespect for God and his earthly representatives. In the case of Jericho, though the city had been rebuilt (with difficulty) in the days of Ahab (1 Kings 16:34, q.v.), it had remained unproductive. Apparently the water still lay under Joshua's curse (cf. Josh 6:26), so that both citizenry and land suffered greatly (v. 19). Elisha's miracle fully removed the age-old judgment, thus allowing a new era to dawn on this area (vv. 20-22). Interestingly Elisha wrought the cure through means supplied by the people of Jericho so that their faith might be strengthened through submission and active participation in God's cleansing work. (EBCOT)
4. This event took place around a cult city (somewhere between Bethel and Jericho, a distance of aproximately 10 miles), a center of anti-YHWH worship:
"Elisha's sweet memories of Jericho received a souring touch at Bethel (v. 23). The public insult against Elisha was aimed ultimately at the God whom he represented. Indeed Elisha's whole prophetic ministry was in jeopardy; therefore the taunt had to be dealt with decisively. The sudden arrival of the two bears who mauled forty-two youths to death would serve as both an awful sentence on unbelievers--and thus, too, on Jeroboam's cult city--and a published reminder that blasphemy against the true God and his program would be met with swift and certain consequences (v. 24)." [EBCOT]
5. The harmless "teasing" was hardly that--they were direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of YHWH that had just healed the water supply (casting doubt on the power and beneficence of Baal!). This was a mass demonstration (if 42 were mauled, how many people were in the crowd to begin with? 50? 100? 400?).:
"As Elisha was traveling from Jericho to Bethel several dozen youths (young men, not children) confronted him. Perhaps they were young false prophets of Baal. Their jeering, recorded in the slang of their day, implied that if Elisha were a great prophet of the Lord, as Elijah was, he should go on up into heaven as Elijah reportedly had done. The epithet baldhead may allude to lepers who had to shave their heads and were considered detestable outcasts. Or it may simply have been a form of scorn, for baldness was undesirable (cf. Isa. 3:17, 24). Since it was customary for men to cover their heads, the young men probably could not tell if Elisha was bald or not. They regarded God's prophet with contempt....Elisha then called down a curse on the villains. This cursing stemmed not from Elisha pride but from their disrespect for the Lord as reflected in their treatment of His spokesman (cf. 1:9-14). Again God used wild animals to execute His judgment (cf., e.g., 1 Kings 13:24). That 42 men were mauled by the two bears suggests that a mass demonstration had been organized against God and Elisha." [Bible Knowledge Commentary]
6. There may have been elements of public safety involved:
"A careful study of this incident in context shows that it was far more serious than a "mild personal offense." It was a situation of serious public danger, quite as grave as the large youth gangs that roam the ghetto sections of our modern American cities. If these young hoodlums were ranging about in packs of fifty or more, derisive towards respectable adults and ready to mock even a well-known man of God, there is no telling what violence they might have inflicted on the citizenry of the religious center of the kingdom of Israel (as Bethel was), had they been allowed to continue their riotous course. " [EBD]
7. Elisha didn't actually call out the bears--he merely pronounced judgment on these demonstrators. God decided what form the response took:
"Perhaps it was for this reason that God saw fit to put forty-two of them to death in this spectacular fashion (there is no evidence that Elisha himself, in imposing a curse, prayed for this specific mode of punishment), in order to strike terror into other youth gangs that were infesting the city and to make them realize that neither Yahweh Himself nor any of His anointed prophets were to be threatened or treated with contempt." [EBD]
8. This curse/judgment was part of the covenant stipulations--it was a reminder of Israel's responsibilities (and opportunities for blessings, as well):
"Elisha pronounced a curse similar to the covenant curse of Lev 26:21-22. The result gave warning of the judgment that would come on the entire nation should it persist in disobedience and apostasy (see 2Ch 36:16). Thus Elisha's first acts were indicative of his ministry that would follow: God's covenant blessings would come to those who looked to him (vv. 19-22), but God's covenant curses would fall on those who turned away from him. [NIV Study Bible notes, in loc.]
"If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted." (Lev 26.21f)
9. This visible display of YHWH's power and reality (like the previous display of His kindness and activity for them) was designed to avert a far greater calamity:
"The savagery of wild animals was brutal enough, but it was mild compared to the legendary cruelty of the Assyrians who would appear to complete God's judgment in 722 BC The disastrous fall of Samaria would have been avoided had the people repented after the bear attack and the increasingly sever divine judgments that followed it. But instead of turning back to God, Israel, as would Judah in a later day, 'mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was arounsed against his people and there was no remedy' (2 Chron 36:16)" [HSOBX]
So, this was hardly the atrocity that it is often construed as--the historical data casts the event into a TOTALLY different light. It WAS a very significant event for the religious fortune (and therefore, future welfare) of the Northern Kingdom...and it called for decisive revelation from God about the severity of the people's condition and situation...

Why couldn't you look this up for yourself, Julie? I gave you the site. I suspect that you don't really want any answers.
Rex

5

No apolgies for God's judgements

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

here's another answer for you, julie, i again do your research for you!.

>1chronicles 21:14 70,000 people die by god's hand because david to a census.

i fail to see the enlightenment here.

Rex B13

Here's another answer for you, Julie, I again do your research for you!

>1Chronicles 21:14 70,000 people die by God's hand because David to a census. I fail to see the enlightenment here. Maybe someone as all-knowing as you can explain it to simple little me.

I am only answering you for those who may really want an answer. You, as usual, are just doing your usual dishonest baiting.

1. God bestows evil consequences upon evil actions ("you reap what you sow"). In any given case, He has many different possibilities of evil consequences to choose from. He chooses what kind of evil to bestow, and when to bestow it, according to His wisdom and plan. He orchestrates His actions to keep all of His commitments. For example, when He visits judgement upon Jerusalem, He manages it such that the righteous are preserved.
Example: I Kings 22 (pp. 2 Chronicles 18): God decides to kill the evil king Ahab, and asks the heavenly hosts as to how to entice Ahab to enter into a battle in which he will die. A spirit volunteers to be a 'lying spirit' in the mouth of Ahab's false prophets. God says 'do it'. God is not guilty of lying, but merely gives Ahab the fruit of his own evil ways (Jer 24.7).
Example: I Sam 16: After repeated failures to submit to God's leadership, Saul is rejected as king. He remains on the throne however, and continues his non-committed lifestyle and reign (even indulging in sorcery and seances). God punishes him by sending an 'unclean spirit' to trouble him. (If he had simply turned back to the Lord, he could have at least had peace of mind.)
2. Satan is always accusing Israel (see Zechariah 3.1-2 in OT) and believers (see Rev 12.10 and I John 2.1 with Jesus as our defense lawyer in NT), and seeks to get God to punish His people. In the 2 Samuel passage, it says that God was angry with Israel (presumably because of the recent revolt under Sheba in I Chrn 20 and other acts by Amnon and Absalom). This would have been a prime opportunity for the Accuser to "incite" (NIV) God to act against Israel through the person of their King. The standard way Satan does this is to appeal to God's justice. He points out man's sin, and then that God's holiness cannot allow it to go unpunished. With His honor at stake, God responds with judgement (but He does not "willingly afflict the children of men" (Lam 3.33). The Cross changed the dynamics of that argument, hence less 'early judgments' on the nations today.
3. One example of this interplay between God and Satan can be seen in Job, although the motivations are radically different. In Job 1.8-12, God brags about Job and Satan accuses Job of honoring God simply for materialistic gain. God allows Satan to attack Job and then in 2.3 God confronts Satan with Job's failure to sin even though "you incited me against him to ruin him." In other words, Satan was the "ruiner" but God was also a "ruiner".
4. This idea of God acting through agents (for reasons of judgment, of mercy, of testing, etc.) occurs frequently in scripture. Job is a good example of reasons of testing. Our passage is a good example of reasons of judgment (on Israel). And Joseph's selling into slavery is a good example of reasons of mercy.
In the story in Gen 37 Joseph (of Technicolor Dreamcoat fame) is sold into slavery by his jealous, angry brothers. God grants him incredible success in Egypt, even rising to the number 2 position under Pharaoh. Listen to him in later passages recall his version of that history:
"do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you" (Gen 45.5)
"but God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth" (Gen 45.7)
"So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God" (Gen 45.8)
"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good" (Gen 50:20)
So in this case, there were evil human intentions, with God's overarching purpose for good. (In spite of the judgment and punishment that God meted out upon his people in our Census case, some good did occur--the site for the temple and the site of Calvary was chosen in an act of grace!)
5. One last example of this 'dual agency' principle concerns sending the spies into Canaan after the exodus:
"The LORD said to Moses, 'Send some men to explore the land of Canaan..."(Num 13.1)
"Then all of you came to me and said 'Let us send men ahead to spy out the land for use...'" (Dt 1.22)
Two possibilities exit here:
God moved the men to suggest/request the sending or
The men said first, Moses asked permission of God, and God gave his Send-command. The second is the more likely of the two, in light of the passages in Job. Note: this case shows that the agencies do not have to operate at the same time.
6. The most probable sequence in our passages runs like this:
God is angry with Israel's sin (and David's handling of the royal family issues).
Satan sees his opportunity, accuses them of wrongdoing, and wins approval to inflict David's and Israel's wrongdoing back on themselves.
God, knowing that the punishment is well deserved, that the example of correction/contrition on David's part will be recorded in Scripture forever as an example, and that He will be gracious 'ahead of schedule' and reveal the site of his temple/crucifixion, agrees to turn David and Israel over to him, for this specific punishment (cf. I Cor 5.5).
Satan, with this permission from God, moves David to begin the Census.
7. It is important to note 2 Sam 24.16: "When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD was grieved because of the calamity..." God's justice is always angry at sin, and His love is always grieved over the misery that sin causes.